00:04:18 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

So, I was so excited that you reached out to me after I shared my interview with Mr. Schaubach! Because I had heard the term Lore-Keeper, but I had, I did, I'd never really…It just sounded cool and I was like, oh, that's a cool job, and never dug into it. Yeah. And when you said you were, you would consent to let me interview you. I looked you up and I watched the interview you did with Jordan Brown last September, I think? And I was very excited that you gave such a thorough definition of the job that you do as lore-keeper and story editor for the, you know, people who don't know what. So I don't, I don't need to ask you any of that stuff. I am. I am not going to unpack all of that for my readers. They know how to Google search, too. So what I what I really want to…

00:05:13 Skye Smith (she/they)

Yes.

00:05:17 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

The reason I invited you to this interview is because I wanted to include as many voices as would talk to me, basically, in my review of Dimension 20 that I that I'm writing for Queer Studies in Media and Popular Culture. And the anthology that you work on, the whole Dimension 20 anthology, has become so successful. You know the Madison Square Garden show last January recently winning a Queerty: congratulations, everybody. Great work! It's - the show has demonstrated a level of intersectional inclusivity with an idea that I've come to think of as casual dignity, which is the idea, it's the practice of granting dignity to difference as though it had never been threatened, or even in question in the first place. Which is, to me, evident in the employment of your creatives, the crafting of your narratives within all of the different seasons of the show. And I wondered if you would mind talking about your personal investment in that kind of open embrace of differences. Tell me a little bit about yourself, and why these stories are important.

00:06:36 Skye Smith (she/they)

Absolutely. Yeah. So I'm like [ . . . ] Yeah, I'm fairly new to – like, relatively - compared to most of the people who have worked on the show. UM, I'm fairly new to the crew. I've been there, been working at Dropout in, like, all over, for a couple of years. But it was a little bit of a journey to get me on into the staff. But from the beginning and even before I arrived, I think it was always very important to them to, like, do to knowing that they have this like power and knowing that storytelling and TV in general is such a big way of like communication and media. I think it was always important from the beginning to them that they have, uh, representation and a lot of that comes from the fact that Brennan is the person who started the show. And that's just sort of how he lives. And I know there's a lot of parasocial relationships with him, and there's always like an element of difference between who someone is on camera and who they aren't, but that quite genuinely is like - that wasn't something, I don't even think it was a conscious decision that Brennan made in the beginning to, like, “We should have queer stories in here.” I think it was just like, “How do we tell” for fantasy high, which was our very first season, like, “how do we tell a real touching story that feels true?” And because he's just a good person, that included queer representation. And that not just goes for Brennan, but of course, also the players who - like Fig, from the beginning, was bi. And having sort of like, like you said, that casual dignity. I think it started organically where it was just like, that's the stance that everyone who works there has on it. And so that's how it translates, created. And of course, as the show got more and more popular and sort of exploded and became well-known, that was something that was supported by fans. And so it became, over time, something that we are very, like, both subconsciously but also consciously, we're like, we want to make sure that we're not forgetting to stay true to that as the show grows, but really the roots of it start with just - it's good people telling a good story, and to them what a good story means is that it's representing not just themselves but everyone. And so by the time I joined, it was like I have never, I - there - I have jokingly made very many, like, references to like, “If you don't do this, you're homophobic,” and -

00:10:16 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

[laughing] Great joke, never gets old!

00:10:17 Skye Smith (she/they)

Ohh, I love to do it. And Brennan takes it always in stride. He'll like playfully bicker with me about it. He's actually like, really gotten me at one point. I was, like, making fun of him in recent seasons. He's let some of us like help with pitching ideas for, like NPC's. We have a season that’s not announced yet. That had, like a, a sort of different way of meeting NPC's and so that required sort of knowing who these people were before the characters met them as opposed to, like, them meeting someone. And the character being decided on the spot. And so like, not all of the characters that everyone pitched got used, but the one that was most dear to me was a pitch that I made for a lesbian NPC who truly – like, her relevance to the plot is very little. She appears in one episode. She's not a big part, but as a joke, when Brennan asked me for it, I was like, “This is who this character is. She's a lesbian, and if you don't make that a part of who she is, then you're homophobic.” And then he ended up, you know, putting a character in the world. Very briefly. We met her. I was very excited behind the scenes. And then afterwards I said, “You know, you - you did very well, except for it was never quite mentioned that she was queer.” And Brennan, who is like - our relationship very much is this, like, back-and-forth bickering and keeping each other honest - he looked at me and he said, “You know, Skye, sometimes you don't have to say it. Sometimes it's just about who the person is.” [laughing] And I went, “You know what? That's fair. You got me there.”

00:11:58 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

[laughing] It's true, it's fair. Well I, I think that's the that's the crux of it, isn't it? Because it's never...I don't know. It doesn't seem like it's - there's no tokenism that's happening. It's all, it all seems very organic. I know so much work goes into the planning and the construction and, and all of this stuff, but because it is, you know, improv-based, it does come across as very organic and it's it doesn't ever seem like, “We are including a Queer Character (TM) so that we can get that demographic.” It's never once come across that way and that, to me, is what makes the show feel so natural and immersive, and it's very easy to believe that I am watching, you know – like the first season Fantasy High, like you were saying, the first - the first season in the anthology was - I totally believed that I could sit down and go to this high school with dragonborns and elves and things because everybody just seems like real people instead of tropes, even though tropes, they're very heavy. That's stories. But I don't know. The scope of my review is incredibly positive! From the outside - watching the show, watching the Adventuring Party episodes that go along with some of the seasons - it's inclusive of such a wide variety of queer experiences and queer narratives. Different orientations across, like, types and levels of attractions, the full spectrum of gender and romantic or sexual partnerships. That just - that swath of real people that I know, who I rarely see represented anywhere. Is the working environment at Dropout  - or at least at Dimension 20 - as inclusive as the stories that make it to the screen? I mean, you just talked about where it all comes from: Brennan. And Brennan is such a good guy - I assume the answer is yes - but what if it’s no? What are, what are y'all doing that the rest of the industry isn’t?

00:14:03 Skye Smith (she/they)

So, I think there are always strides to be made in terms of that, especially because the show has been running for so long (and Dropout in particular) and this is my answer whenever anyone asks me, like, “How do I get a job at Dropout?” I'm like, “Well, it is honestly very hard.” I was lucky enough to make some connections through my time in the film industry elsewhere, and even with those connections who helped me find a place at Dropout, it took a really long time, from the time that I met these people to the time that there was a place for me there. And part of that is because Dropout is, in general, a wonderful place to work: in terms of the way they care about their employees, in terms of inclusivity about the way that they - I mean it's like, people I know have talked about, like - Dropout pays the profit-sharing for everyone, but Dropout pays for people who audition to do so and stuff like that. And that's, that's something that they do because it's something that they believe in. And so it's like, my standard for it, of course, is the answer is “Yes, it's a wonderful place to work and there's nowhere better.” And we talk about it all the time, especially because I have worked in other parts of the industry…and even though I have always been very lucky in the jobs that I've taken in the film industry, nowhere has ever compared to Dropout and truly like - I started as a freelancer, but I really stopped working in other places in the industry, both because Dropout was able to give me stability and work that I didn't need to, and also because once you start working at Dropout, it's kind of like: you go to other places and you're like, “This isn't - they don't treat me right!” So in general, yes. But I do think because Dropout is so progressive and inclusive, it's really easy to sort of almost idolize it. Like, I see a lot of people being like “Dropout is the best and there's nothing wrong with it !” and -

00:15:57 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

That is dangerous, yeah.

00:15:59 Skye Smith (she/they)

I think, comparatively to the rest of the industry, on a level, they're right. Any complaint I've ever had about working at Dropout has been with the thought that this is miles - already miles - better than anywhere else I've worked, but I think a big part of being able to keep that culture and continue being inclusive, continue being good for your company, is you have to be open and honest about, like, criticisms. Otherwise there's like this sense of like, “Well, you don't have to keep growing.” Which everything does. So as far as like, representation and inclusivity on set and in our company. Sorry, excuse me. There. Just - it's miles ahead of anywhere else. And like, that's the bottom line, is it is - it's good. It's amazing. I've never worked anywhere else like it, but it is a company that, because there's not a lot of turnover, has a lot of people who have been there since the beginning, which was like, 2016. And the industry - the world and the industry - was very different at the time, so a lot of the people who are up there and in power are people who - not that they aren't diverse, but there is like a very - there's a lot of men. There's a lot of white men and there's a lot of straight white men and they are all people in charge who are like Brennan, championing, championing that culture. But it is just the truth, unfortunately from working in the film industry, that minorities are minorities. And so there is like - it is diverse, it's more diverse than anywhere I've ever worked and it's like - the culture there is the best. It's, you know, like, diversity is celebrated, inclusion is celebrated. But that doesn't mean that we have a perfectly diverse executive board or a perfectly diverse, even like, head of the, like, creative heads of the show. There's always work to be done. I think the point in favor for the culture at Dropout and the work there is that all of these people who are in charge, who may not have the background or the representation innately or…they're very, very dedicated to making sure that those voices are heard. So from the beginning, you know, like, I stepped into this job full-time a year ago and for by all, like corporate standards, it's a miracle that I got this job. I don't have a college degree. I don't have a lot of corporate experience. I - most of my work in the film industry had been like, ranging from production assistant to like, assistant director. I didn't have any major credits to my name. But that is not something that they care about as the priority for them. The priority in hiring me was, “Well, you're good at what we need you to do and you care about this show and you have a unique voice.” And so even just that being their priorities and hiring someone and giving me a platform within the company as a full-time staff member is unheard-of. I would not have a job at this level. I would not be taken care of by company at this level anywhere else. And so like, for all that, there is still room to grow in diversity - and they've been doing it even in the time that I've been hired. We have had a lot more diversity in higher stuff in, you know, like higher levels of work as well, like, people slowly climbing up the ladder and being given those opportunities that might be harder for them to reach because of race, of gender, of whatever it is. So there is always work to be done. I am always hesitant to say it's the perfect place, but it's definitely the best, best place I've ever worked. And it's definitely like - they do the work to make sure that it's true.

00:19:45 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

I love that. I was talking to Rick Perry that met with me, who is such - the coolest guy! I want to go to his farm and, like, forage. ‘Cause I do like, foraging and wildcrafting and basket-weaving and stuff and I just want to like, get my hands in there. But he mentioned that Dimension 20 makes use of sensitivity consultants for things that they don't have an on-staff voice for, and that's something that I've heard so many people in the industry dismiss or kind of scoff at. And the - the fact that you are so intentional about including the voices - even when the voice is not technically included - does that make sense? I think that's very, very cool. So in the - in the in the interview that I watched with Jordan Brown, you defined your Lore-keeper job with tons of detail. And I, I'm delighted to hear that you got a, a little creative voice. That's very cool. That's really, really - I love hearing stories like that. Apart from that, what other influence do you feel you have, as a queer crew member, regarding that sort of inclusivity?

00:21:15 Skye Smith (she/they)

Yeah. Well, a big part of my job that directly relates to that is that I'm often the person who's raising the sensitivity flags. Like, part of my job is to be, “Scrub this,” and to look at what we're doing and, you know like, everyone has an implicit bias and past - even like an,  an implicit bias - there sometimes is just, it's like not even a bias, but it's just like, that's the way the world is. And that's the way our brains are formed. And so sometimes like, someone will say something and it's like, “Well that is maybe something that we shouldn't – like, we shouldn't frame it under those - that lens, because that might be insensitive.”

00:21:53 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

And if - people could just have blind spots. Yes, for sure.

00:21:56 Skye Smith (she/they)

Absolutely, that's, that's mostly like what it is and anytime - I will say like, one thing about really working at this company that I had to get used to is, like, even just in my personal life, like I have often been like, not mocked, but sort of like random for being like ‘too woke,’ you know, like [mockingly] “Ohh, like is it, does it really matter that that thing is a problem?” Like as a kid, you know, on the playground - kids used to play, play suicide, where they would like - when we're playing tag and you know, we're all clumped in one spot and we're, like, surrounded and someone's like, well, I'm gonna commit suicide. And then you run and I would like, take issue with that for personal reasons. And then like it was very much this thing of like, “Oh, it's 8-year-olds. Like, they don't really know what they're saying. You can't really, you know, like, sensitivity guide 8-year-olds when you are an 8-year-old. But like, that's sort of been the tone that I think a lot of the world has sort of seen, not just me but like, Gen Z in general. I'm very much a cusp [between Millennial and Gen Z] but as I, you know, as I see my siblings - and then also like, just the, the youth around me grow up - and it becomes this, like, joke of like being ‘too woke.’ So working for a company where like: not only is it acceptable for me to like be ‘too woke,’ it's like part of my job! Like I when I first started, I had to sort of ask Carlos a couple times - Carlos Luna, who is my direct boss - I had to sort of ask him and be like, “Hey, like, is it OK? Like, I know this really doesn't matter. At the end of the day, we're telling a fake story, and this culture doesn't exist. But is it okay for me to, like, stomp down and mentioned to our team that this might be a flag?” And he was like, “Well, that's your job. So yes.” And like, at the end of the day, my job isn't to determine whether or not it's something that is an issue. It's to say, “This might be an issue,” when someone else needs to make that determination. So I had a really beautiful moment, because they are willing to let me sort of have a creative voice where when we're spinning up seasons and we're throwing things around there have been a couple of seasons where I've been like, “I love this trope, but it is rooted in colonialism” or “it is rooted in whitewashing” and so like - arguably, the more fun creative choice is, “How do we take that trope and make it more pure? How do we make it a better trope in the long run?” And so – and, and it's actually happened! Like, they - people will listen to me. And that's like - I've scheduled a few sensitivity consultants for our seasons because they're like, “Yeah, that's a great point. Who can we, we talk to?” Because like I have, I always like to say ‘diversity bingo,’ I win every time. Like, I've got a lot of identity stuff that I am happy to use and throw around, but at the end of the day, I also know my limits. And so like, when it comes to stories about worlds where there are natives involved - I did not grow up in touch at all with my native culture, so I'm not going to speak to what it means to be a native, even in a fictional world, because that's not who I am, and that's not a voice for me to use - but because I have that perspective and I know that I'm separated from that identity, even within myself, I can go, “Hey, I don't know if this is a problem, but it might be worth finding out.” And then they will! They will happily be like, “Yeah, find a consultant. Let's do it.” And we did. So I think in terms of like, representation and sensitivity, a lot of what my job is, is sort of being that first filter of like - we also have a dedicated quality control team that also will flag things like that as a part of their quality control - but like, my job is to make sure that they don't. By the time it gets to them, the season's done! It's filmed, it's edited. So like, my job is to make sure when we're there, like, “Hey, is this going to be a problem? And how do we fix it before we move forward?” If so - we're filming a twenty-episode season right now. We have to fix it before we get too deep into the story and it's too late. And there have been like, a couple of scenarios where, like, we've had to re-do pieces of art because it, like, harkens to something that it shouldn't be, like, compared to this faction of our, you know, like our world that we're building. And at the end of the day, it's fiction, this - this faction is not representative of those cultures - but it could be taken as such. And that's a problem in terms of like, queer stories specifically. A part of my job at the end of each season is to go through and look at all of our NPCs and assign like - make sure all the names are correct, make sure pronouns are correct - and also a big part of my job is like, “Where are there opportunities for diversity? What characters - because we don't see a lot about NPCs - and actually we had a season directed or GMed by Aabriya where we had to talk a lot about, like, “Well, these characters have identities, but because they're NPCs, we don't know a lot about those identities. So is it more disrespectful to, like, almost make it tokenized by trying to hammer (in the five minutes of screen time these characters have)  that they are ‘diverse’? Or is it better to just know that, ourselves, and to allude to that and make it genuine? ‘Cause like, if you meet someone for five minutes in a battle, you're not necessarily going to know they use they/them pronouns.

00:27:15 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

Yeah, I - I noticed that in, in some of the different seasons with the character art that comes up. And -  it is, but it is…it is nice to know because even a little wink like that is - I think that's the important part! Because not every story has to be about somebody's romantic or sexual identity. It's just an aspect of who they are, and we don't really have to go into it all the time, which I think is something that queer media can kind of get stuck in.  Because, because it's traumatic, being - being a queer person in…anywhere, at this point… is an inherently traumatic experience, and coming-out narratives are inherently traumatic. But everybody has one, so it's a very classic story to tell. What I love about Dimension 20 is that there are very few of those…And - but there are so many queer people that it feels so natural - feels like all of all of the trauma related to that experience has been dealt with, and everybody can move forward into, like, actual adventure...the, the different things -

00:28:33 Skye Smith (she/they)

Yes,and, and we do have the benefit oftentimes of creating a world, right? And so when we're creating this world, one of those, like, sensitivity flags early in the creative process that sparked a discussion for us was that: we were making this world and talking about what it looked like and what the genre looked like - and sort of automatically, there was this like, “Well, you know, there are parts of this world that have been colonized.” And I at first was like, “Well, yeah, you know, that's not something that we want to erase entirely, of course. There is colonization with any progress, and that's an important thing to acknowledge…” But then I also thought about it and I was like, “But does there have to be? Is there a way for people in a world to be evil without colonization?” And the answer is always yes. And so we talked about it and - so and, you know, we were like, “Well, maybe…maybe instead of ‘these lands have been colonized,’ it's, you know, these lands are at battle with this empire, and they're winning because they're not being wiped out by like…” If we're building our own world, why can't we make that it's normal to be queer? Where it's, you know, without overdoing it, without being like “Everyone's queer and you have to come out as straight!” Like, why can't it just be - if we're creating from scratch a fiction - why can't it be a story that is focused on the actual villain instead of ‘human nature villainy’? And you know, especially when, like, if we're telling a story and the, the plot and push of that story is about homophobia, that's one thing. But if, if that's not the villain of this season, then why does it need to exist? And I a part of me - and you know, we had this discussion back and forth where it was like very much about like, “Well, we also don't want to say that those things don't exist because as a matter of representation, it is important to talk about the battles that people fight.” And it is, you know, just being like, “Well, and this is a perfect world!” does not fix anything at the end of the day. But it's also like, at what point are we creating tragedy for tragedy's sake? At what point are we creating, you know, oppression for oppression’s sake as a, as a sort of worldbuilding device that - you know, is that a little bit lazy? Can we come up with other reasons for there to be problems in this world? And that has always been very important to us. And I was incredibly thrilled that, you know, like even at that point when the specific instance I'm talking about - we have a little bit of this discussion every season - but the first time, I think, that I really brought it up in that way, I remember feeling like - a little bit nervous! Because, you know, that's not especially, like -  because we are creating this together, nobody likes to hear that their creative idea is oppressive! But I think the fact that it was sort of - not only well-received but then like, continuously as we built this thing - it was like, “Well, thank God you raised that flag because it's opened all of these other ways for us to be creative!” I think really speaks to the culture and the like, sort of creative direction at Dropout where it's like: everyone is open to that sort of thought and criticism and discussion. And like, there have been times where I've raised flags and we talked about it and at the end of the meeting I go, “Actually, I think you're right. I think it does need to be a part of this season.” But the fact that we're willing to take the time to really slow down and dissect that, I think, contributes to us being able to tell these stories in a way that is both honest and also not exhausting to watch, you know.

00:32:06 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

Sure, yes, absolutely. And I love, I love that approach. Like, almost coming at a story’s conflict sideways instead of going with a conflict we're all familiar with, that we've all seen. What would be the enemy in a world where stoats are the main characters? What would be the enemy if you had an infinite universe to explore? Would there be one? It's probably capitalism.

00:32:34 Skye Smith (she/they)

Yes.

00:32:35 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

It's, it's very fun when some of the when stories are set in universes that are already established, like Fantasy High with the John Hughes films and high fantasy like Lord of the Rings; like Burrow’s End inspired by Watership Down; Misfits and Magic as this sort of simultaneous love letter-slash-bitter call-out to the Harry Potter franchise. Give me a little bit more detail about what the process is of unpacking those worlds. We - that's kind of what that - that's what you're basically doing, is unpacking not just the world itself, but the motivations of the world and why those seem like the default: why other choices were not made. And, and, and talk a little bit more? Now: who else gets to be the voice in that room on the transformative nature of these projects? Because one of my research focuses is transformative fiction: Shakespeare's works, Disney stuff, telling the same story over and over - and my research is intending to focus on how to use transformative and collaborative storytelling with high school students to increase authentic engagement. And I'm trying to figure out how to make all of those pieces fit together, but how? How…yeah. Go into a little bit more about…

00:33:56 Skye Smith (she/they)

That's - I think MisMag is a really great lens in this sort of way because - it's easy to forget because we go through so much content, we make so much and air so much content - but the original MisMag was so long ago and it's really easy to forget that at the time that MisMag - I wasn't working there yet - and I don't know the date off the top of my head, but it was - the way that I think Harry Potter as the media was engaged with was very different at the time. I'm ironically wearing a Harry Potter shirt so.

00:34:26 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

I, you just had to bring it out. Yeah, I love the shirt! In the Adventuring Parties, they do address it. Erika brings it up. Everybody kind of, you know, references that elephant in the room of - you know, they had a a whole adventuring party where everybody went around the table and said “Fuck TERFs,” so -

00:34:48 Skye Smith (she/they)

Well, and I think that's very indicative of like the, the intentions of Dropout? Because at the time – um, if I recall correctly, like - that stuff was out, but it was not…J. K. Rowling was not quite out there swinging her fists as much as she -

00:35:04 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

Not as much now.

00:35:05 Skye Smith (she/they)

Yes. And so from the beginning, it was always like, a bit of a tongue-in-cheek like, “Well, what if that wasn't? What if that wasn't the person who created this world? What if we looked at it and critiqued it honestly and sort of had it?” And I know there was a lot of criticism when we announced [Misfits and Magic] Season 2 of, like, “Do we really want to give kudos to that world anymore?” And the answer is “No.” And a big part of the discussions around it that I think a lot of people don't think about - because they don't have to, because that's not the job of a consumer - but we also had a lot of discussions around this idea of like, “Of course we don't want it to be J. K. Rowling's world and it never was to begin with.” But it's easy to see, you know, like: of course, that perspective is valid of, like, why you're drawing attention to an IP. And of course, that's valid. But also at the end of the day, like, when the [MisMag] world was created, the real world was a little bit different. It was not as big of a deal for us to throw any attention to that IP. First of all, our show, our tiny show, is not going to introduce anyone who has not already heard of Harry Potter to Harry Potter, which is important.

00:36:17 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

There's no way.

00:36:19 Skye Smith (she/they)

But it is a good and valid criticism of like, “Does it need any more attention?” Especially when the creator is out here making things worse for everyone who loved the show and, you know, made it - makes it hard to appreciate it. And that's an excellent point of view. And I guess the other sort of side of that argument that we had when we were sort of thinking about doing a Season 2 was like, at the same time: “But is it fair to let a single transphobic person end a story that has more story to tell that does uplift people both above the table and in the table who are trans, who have gender exploration, who have that. We know there are queer characters in there. There's all sorts of, like, beautiful representation and - by the point that we, by the time that we went back to Misfits and Magic - very much, we kept coming back to this realization of like, “It's not about Harry Potter anymore, it is its own stand-alone world. And at no point are we going to say that the first season was not alluding to Harry Potter at all: of course that's where it started. But as a creative world, it sort of took its own legs and grew and like, part of the reason that we didn't go back to Gowpenny is because we were like, “There's sort of nothing to do because it's not a well-written sort of setting,” you know. Like, that's not where we live anymore, because that story is done and told, and there's nothing more to be said there. And so instead, we're looking at a wider world which had absolutely nothing to do with Harry Potter. I cannot even emphasize enough how little Harry Potter came up in the second season because like - while we do want to honor that we were sort of referencing it in the first season - it was an entirely different story in magic and it was important to not let the actions of one bad person sort of strangle a story that is important: about gender, about sexuality, about becoming a young adult and exploring those things - which is when those themes are really, really relevant - and learning who you are. And so it was - actually it was like a sort of freedom of like, “We can take this media and decide that we're done with it, and do it better, and to have nothing to do with it anymore.”

00:38:40 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

Well, not with - the whole point of Season 2 was they - the characters in-world – literally broke the world, as far as all of the rules of magic went. I wept like a fool at the last episode when they were laying out the new rules that they created. It was the - that's - is that not everyone's dream? Is to -

00:38:47 Skye Smith (she/they)

Yes. Yeah.

00:39:03 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

- break the system that broke them? Yeah. Write it better. It's great.

00:39:08 Skye Smith (she/they)

Very, very much so. And that was, like, important to us - and I think almost, sort of more important to me: it was not decided that that was going to be an allegory for moving on from Harry Potter. It was just an organic storyline that came from existing in the world together and creating, you know? Like being like, “What does it look like?” And because that is still where we ended up - to me I'm like, “That's how we know we're telling a real truth. That's how we know that our story is honest.” Because we didn't drive the boat there to really emphasize that we're not in Harry Potter anymore. To us it was honestly more important to kind of be like “It doesn't matter whether or not we mirror - Harry Potter has nothing to do with us because it doesn't matter to us.” And so the fact that the plot drove in the way that it did was genuine and honest and just had to do with like, “This is what happens in the world when you are 22 and in charge and in a crazy society.” And I think it just was a very important story. Being in my early 20s, I think like, “Yeah, there it is.” It is a crazy amount of responsibility to turn into adults -

00:40:12 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

Yeah.

00:40:16 Skye Smith (she/they)

-  and to suddenly be responsible. And like, imagine if - on top of your regular being young and twenty and messy - you also had a bunch of people who were suddenly holding you responsible? That's crazy. Crazy. So yeah, there's - I think, for me - and like, even within those discussions that we have about like, “Well, we're taking like, this setting, and these are the constraints of the season, of the setting that we're sort of drawing inspiration from” - It's exciting to me to break those things. Like, that is the best part. Being able to like, look at like - yeah, even like Watership Down - and be like, “Well, what are the constraints of that setting and what can we do with full rein? What are the, what are the stories that we can tell without those constraints? And what if those constraints don't happen? What happens to the rest of the world ?” And that often informs how a seasoned setting is built, is, it's like, “Well if we break this fence, where is the new boundary, if we decide that queer  people do exist and it's not a big deal, what is a big deal? Is it still falling in love, regardless of gender? Is really-interpersonal relationships and the way that those are viewed in a society different? If this sort of oppression doesn't exist in that society?” And it's beautiful and exciting to me to, like, not just imagine that, but also be like, “Oh my God, is that a goal post to get to? Is that a goal in the future?” Of being like, “Well, we've played through this world and proved that the world will still exist if queer people are not feared, which means that it's possible somewhere!” You know? And like, I think there's, there's a lot of really good hope in that and also a lot of like - I think for a lot of people, the idea of free reign and breaking the world and starting from scratch is overwhelming - and I'm not saying it's not – absolutely, it is. But I also think if you can just take a leap and be excited about the chaos of it, you find beautiful, beautiful, creative directions in breaking those boundaries.

00:42:30 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

I love it. I, I've always - because I'm an, I'm a teacher. I teach high school English - and one of the things that I try to get my students to do when they're looking at a story is at, “Is it interrogated? Tie it to a chair and, and ask it questions: ‘Why is it like this? Why is it like that?’ And don't ever answer ‘Well, because that's how it is.’

00:42:50 Skye Smith (she/they)

Yeah. 

00:43:01 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

And sometimes just one shift can completely rewrite a story, like with Watership Down [compared to D20’s Burrow’s End], just the decision to make them predator animals instead of prey animals - even though they're tiny, they’re still a little guy - but that one decision completely altered the tenor of the world. And I, I - y'all tell such good stories. I'm, I'm very delighted to have found Dimension 20, which is funny because I don't, I'm not a D&D player. I've walked on to a couple of my friends’ games as an NPC here and there and - never played a campaign - and I listened to it [Dimension 20] on the way home on a vacation and - because my, my husband listens to Critical Role and it helps him go to sleep and he found Dimension 20 - we listened to -

00:43:26 Skye Smith (she/they)

Yeah.

00:43:39 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

The Unsleeping City and I was like, “Who are these people?” 

00:43:42 Skye Smith (she/they)

Yeah.

00:43:43 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

These - this story is, is so immersive and so exciting and so different and so fun! And I've been, I've been jogging to keep up ever since. And I was very surprised when I found that there was such little notice being taken by the academic community because - we look at stories! [Smith’s dog enters the screen with them] Hello!

00:44:10 Skye Smith (she/they)

This is my little dog, and he's a Velcro dog - very much attached to me - so he's decided that my lap is where he wants to be right now.

00:44:17 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

Very handsome, very handsome guy! But I'm, I'm - I work with the College English Association. I'm on their, I'm on their Board. I'm their grad, “Grad Student Liaison.” [sarcastically] Very exciting stuff. And nobody has heard of it [Dimension 20] and I know it's a new media and a lot of old people are in academia and they don't understand how streaming works, but - stories are stories. 

00:44:50 Skye Smith (she/they)

Yeah.

00:44:51 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

And I was so excited that you shared that contact with me [another Dimension 20 academic writer] when we were emailing, because I've, I'm following her. I'm waiting for her to put out a Call For Papers for something else because I'm, I'm ready to, I'm ready to get collaborating. But I'm -

00:44:56 Skye Smith (she/they)

Yes.

00:45:04 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

Let me scroll through some of my questions and see if there's anything specific - gosh, you've - we've - touched everything you should! You've been - you've answered my questions so incredibly eloquently and -

00:45:18 Skye Smith (she/they)

Thank you.

00:45:19 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

One of the people that I research - that I've interviewed recently for something else - was addicted to the words “like, you know.” That phrase was 7 to 10 times in every paragraph, and that's fine. I can cut that out for an interview.

00:45:30 Skye Smith (she/they)

Yeah.

00:45:38 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

It was very - it was very fun! Every question that I have, you kind of touched on.

00:45:48 Skye Smith (she/they)

All good! I do think something that you touched on that I wanted to acknowledge is like: yeah, that barrier to - not just with academia - but I think a lot of like, breaking out of nerd culture specifically - and like, a lot of our audience is D&D players or people who are connected to D&D players. And I like, I do understand that a lot of that comes from like, the fact that you, you know, you hear Dimension 20 and it's presented as a Dungeons and Dragons show. And that's what it started as. But I think we've really moved to a place where we're now using the game as a mechanic for storytelling, like, what's important to us. And a big part of why we're able to tell open and honest stories with such incredible diversity is - the game system is honestly sort of the last thing on our minds when it comes to creating a new season like we do. We create the season and then we go, “What game system helps us tell this story?” as opposed to being like, “What do we want to play D&D?” And so we have to create like - it's more about like, “What is the story and what mechanics do we need to make it real and genuine and exciting for everyone inside of the Dome when we're playing?”

00:47:02 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

It is important to have that structure, I think, too, when you are telling a collaborative story. Because people get carried away, yes? There's nothing, there's no guardrails or limits on their - no dice rolls keeping them in check. Yeah, I think that, that's what makes the story so much more meaningful, because they are reacting to something in real time instead of thinking of, “What's the best case scenario that I could act out?”

00:47:28 Skye Smith (she/they)

Well, and successes and failures feel earned in that way, which is very important to telling an honest story. Because, like I said, with creating a story, so much of the fun comes from the freedom of “anything is possible.” But then the reality - and the thing that makes these stories honest and important - is the limitations. And that comes from the system. So I'm like, not ever surprised that a lot -there are people, especially like older people or people who are not at all in touch with, like, game crowds - never surprised that they're not sort of aware or interested. But I do think there, there are a lot of people who would be surprised by how much they like it in the end. Especially the newer season, because it really has - we've gotten to a place of like - it, it's more about the story at the end of the day - and that's what we do, and that's the most important part to all of us.

00:48:30 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

Well, I love that and it's so evident in how everything is presented. Everything is crafted so lovingly and so intentionally and with such respect - no matter who's behind the table - and when Brennan is doing it, it's, he does a fantastic job, and watching him do D&D is like watching if an encyclopedia could do the job, it - just fascinating. He's forgotten more things than I'll ever know. I love it when you bring in other DMs, too. When Aabriya comes on, I know that every rule I've ever thought of is going to be gone. I just need to ‘blank slate’ because she's going to completely reinvent existence and -

00:49:13 Skye Smith (she/they)

Yeah.

00:49:15 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

It's fascinating how differently you can tell stories with the same set of rules. This, or the same limitations, in in infinite combinations. I enjoy everything y'all are doing and it's very, very cool to, to watch. And it's very cool to analyze because -

00:49:39 Skye Smith (she/they)

Yeah.

00:49:41 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

There is that element of real people, real interactions, acting and reacting, that - guided by this larger structure with someone at the helm - so there is that level of “Know this. This is a piece of literature. This did take intention and planning.” And things like that and - but it becomes so much greater than the sum of its parts when everybody gets their hands into it, and it's a treat to watch. So.

00:50:14 Skye Smith (she/they)

I also will say like: as much as - for us, in creating story like - voices are heard and stories are told through diversity, because that's just who we are as a creative team. Like, that's important to us personally, and it's not like - I wish there was a structure that we could offer to other shows as being like, “Here's how we make sure that we are diverse and inclusive.” But at the end of the day, it's just that it matters to all of us personally, regardless of identity: that we tell a story that is real and true and that includes the existence of people who are not us. And I think something that really - after being at Dropout for you know, two years now – we tell these stories and it's important to us, and it's easy to just be like, “Well, that's just what it is.” And it's, it's easy to not downplay it to an extent, and be like, “Well, this is where everyone should be at!” But I think one of the most beautiful and, like, moving and touching things - for me, as someone who is queer and I grew up in a place where it wasn't at the time (we're getting there now) but it wasn't dangerous in my community to be queer. It was like - my coming out was very casual, every time I've done it - like, I forget to come out. I think I accidentally came out to extended family on social media most of the time and like, it's just, it's not for me. It's easy to be like -well, it's not, like - queer representation is important in all aspects, and it's something that I seek out when I'm watching media, but it's not something that is as impactful to me because I am lucky enough to live in a situation where I don't feel like I can't be authentic about who I am all of the time. But there also is a difference to the feeling of being in a sold-out Madison Square Garden with 20,000 people and seeing a queer autistic lesbian appear on the screen and hearing people absolutely lose it. The loudest cheers we got were for that character! And I, you know - I brought this up to, like, Brennan afterwards - and I was like, “I think it's easy for us to forget what it means to have that representation, because for us it is so innate and just like a given. It's like, of course we're going to have clear representation.” But in that moment, even with all of my privilege surrounding my identity., it was just like - I had to like, just stop and take it in for a moment - because it's like, I have never, there has never been an occasion where I have seen 20,000 people cheer to see a lesbian. Like? You know, I like, I go to queer concerts and all of that and it's just like - I think the impact that we're just now starting to see, and the thing that is really important to us about telling these queer stories - is that it matters to people. And that it - because it is genuine. Because it's not, you know, like - Ayda [an NPC in Fantasy High] is a queer autistic lesbian - but she's also a very powerful wizard and just very cool! Like, that's just -

00:53:19 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

She's also played by a straight white guy yes, which is a -

00:53:22 Skye Smith (she/they)

Correct.

00:53:22 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

- Which is a, a type of drag show that I'm so here for!

00:53:26 Skye Smith (she/they)

And the fact that he sort of hits the nail on the head so often! I'm like [to Brennan], “I don't, I don't think I could play her as accurately as you do!” Like, the things that I see and I do in myself - it's crazy.

00:53:36 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

It is easy. [Mimicking Skye to Brennan:] “Did we have a conversation? No?”

00:53:40 Skye Smith (she/they)

Yes! But it is - yeah, I think at the end of the day, that is something that is - the most meaningful part of my job for me - is that, like, I look around and I go like, “Oh, it is having an impact? Is it not just one more voice in a story?” It's not even j”ust one more diverse story,” “the number of stories.” It's somewhat historical, and that's important to - like, me personally as a human being - to like, look around and be like, “Wow.” Like, that healed a part of me to see, and I don't even have as much to heal, in that sense. You know what I mean?

00:54:18 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

I do. I know, I know exactly. My non-neurotypical self knows exactly what you mean. Well, final question, personal note: you said that you use dot-matrix notebooks to take notes. Then…what's your favorite brand?

00:54:33 Skye Smith (she/they)

I, I love a moleskin just because it's consistent, it's easy. I - actually, for a lot of my, like, middle and high school years - would go to the Philippines and buy these like, they have this chain - they're called National Bookstore - that I absolutely adore, and I don't even think they make the ones that I loved so much now. But they had these perfect A5 dotted notebooks when I was growing up and I used to stock up and then bring them home in my luggage because I loved them. But since I can't find them as often, I do love the moleskin. I also, I like to get like different planners, and there's one that I found called the Passion Planner that has - one side is just a dotted matrix and the other side is more planner. I actually started using that as just, like, a regular notebook -

00:55:21 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

I -

00:55:24 Skye Smith (she/they)

- for day-to-day things which I really enjoy.

00:55:27 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

- I've been bullet-journaling for about 8 or 9 years here now and I love the moleskin. I uses that for a while, but then I found - look. I don't have much social media presence. I think I have 18 Instagram followers. It's not - it's not a lot. This is not a plug. This is one nerd to another: Notebook Therapy. [Holding up journal] When I tell you that this A5 dot-notebook -the only marker I've ever had go through it is a full-on thick-boi black Sharpie! This paper -you can't, you can't get through this paper. It's - I've Mod-Podged on, onto these pages and it's taken it. And I just wanted to, to, to let you know. This was my March - 

00:56:01 Skye Smith (she/they)

Incredible, searching right now. I love -

00:56:15 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

- calendar. Isn't it pretty?

00:56:17 Skye Smith (she/they)

How gorgeous!

00:56:18 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

I've been using stickers because I don't have time to actually do art, but sometimes collaging my months is the only art I get to do. 

00:56:22 Skye Smith (she/they)

Yeah.

00:56:26 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

Oh, that messed up all my lighting. Holding that out messed up my whole light filter. Oh, well: we're almost out of time, and I don't want to keep you. 

00:56:38 Skye Smith (she/they)

Yeah. Thank you so much! Thank you.

00:56:39 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

Thank you! Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me. I'd love to chat with you again. I will - I mean, if you don't mind me hollering at you sometime in the future if you ever want to nerd out about dot-matrix planners again - I would be delighted. So -

00:56:56 Skye Smith (she/they)

Absolutely! Thank you so much for, you know, like, doing a deep dive into research on this sort of thing because it really does, like - obviously, queer stories are important to all of us on the creative team innately - but we do still have, like, corporate oversight at the end of the day. So that kind of thing being acknowledged -

00:57:14 Hannah Mitchell (she/her)

Yeah, for sure.

00:57:17 Skye Smith (she/they)

- It's a great way to show them that it matters to people.